Banshee's Veil; Why it promotes defensive play and how to fix it

Hey guys! I'm Just Roy, a Diamond 5 (Time Warner Cable is a cruel mistress, RIP my elo.) support main. I've been pondering why the late game can feel so frustrating, and one of the main reasons I've found is Banshee's Veil. If you look at the most game changing items at the moment; Banshee's is by far the most impactful. It's extremely common in competitive play for all 10 players to have Banshee's Veil's come late game. In a meta where a rogue skillshot or CC hitting your carry can immediately end the game, Banshee's is king. It gives poke comps a safety net from getting engaged on, and hard engage comps a way to stop their carries from getting poked down. **If the item is so good, why rework it?** I'm glad you asked! Because the spell shield block provided is so good, many games reach a point where neither team wants to make an aggressive move, because they are safer being engaged on with their banshee's all up than making an aggressive move. Also, every time one team attempts an aggressive move, they are forced back for 25 seconds while they wait for their Banshee's Veil's to come back up. Intended or not, every time Banshee's Veil returns to the meta, competitive game time across all regions increases. **What do you propose?** Essentially, I think that spell shields have an extremely important role in league of legends. They create a much needed defense against poke champions and long range CC. But the current iteration of it is too steeped in promoting defensive play. What if, instead of the current passive, Banshee's worked as a mini Nocturne Shroud of Darkness? It could be an active, that when used blocked the next spell for 1.5 seconds. **What would that accomplish?** First of all, it would require the player to mindfully block a skillshot or ability, instead of Banshee's doing all the work for them. It would also still allow CC/Skillshot/Poke champions to hit their abilities on unsuspecting Banshee's users. **But wouldn't this end up in the same scenario as the old Banshee's Veil where everyone wait's until the usable active is up?** Here is where we get to the meat of my idea! What if, Banshee's Veil's active had an overall cool down (let's say, 2 minutes). Twice every ten seconds, an enemy spell cast could reduce the cool down of Banshee's Cry by 10 seconds. This is barring a 25-40 second minimal internal cool down. **That sounds incredibly convoluted for something that doesn't necessarily need fixing, how does this help the game again?** Making a system that rewards being near the enemy team creates a late game scenario that encourages riskier play. Also, if a backline poke champion, say Ziggs, wants to buy a Banshee's, it would be harder for him to charge it than say, Shyvana. However, Ziggs has the added safety of picking and choosing what CC to use the active on, unlike the old Banshee's. **My proposed change for Banshee's Veil:****Banshee's Veil** +450 health +55 magic resistance Unique Active -Banshee's Cry-: Grants a spell shield for the next 1.5 seconds that blocks the next enemy ability. This active is on a 2 minute cool down. Unique Passive: Nearby enemy spell casts reduce Banshee's Cry's cool down by 10 seconds. (Occurs up to 2 times every 10 seconds. Banshee's Cry has a minimum cool down of 40 seconds.) Unique Passive: Grants 45 health regen for up to 10 seconds after taking damage from an enemy champion or when the spell shield is consumed. **TL;DR:** Basically, my idea is to make Banshee's Veil reward offensive play instead of defensive play. The active will come up MORE frequently by playing aggressive, and unlike the old Banshee's that punished you for getting in combat by resetting the shield cool down, this new Banshee's does the exact opposite. It will create larger windows where a team's back line is vulnerable in exchange for giving the back line greater control over what spell they want to block. Overall, it is a complete shift in power that I think would be very healthy for competitive league.

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I like it! Especially, how the spectre's cowl passive is included. I wonder, though, if the active is necessary at all. What if you just applied this cooldown mechanic to the existing banshees? As to the new mechanic, the only change I'd like to see is from this: Unique Passive: When an enemy ability is used within range, 10 seconds is taken off Banshee's Cry. This can occur a maximum of 8 times between casts (with a minimum cool down of 40 seconds.) To this: Unique Passive: Nearby enemy spellcasts reduce Banshee's Cry's cooldown by 10 seconds. (Occurs up to 2 times every 10 seconds) 1. Phrasing is in line with how riot says it elsewhere (karma's passive, tear). 2. With the previous iteration, I'm concerned about the case where teams go looking for an engage. They each pop many of their banshees, but don't get a catch onto priority targets. They DO cast more than 8 spells. Now all of their banshees are on 40 second cooldowns. They back off and wait out the 40 seconds, like they do currently, just on a slightly longer timer. With this version, it forces people to expose themselves multiple times while their banshees is off cooldown.
Personally I don't like this idea at all. Mostly because it has to make the item much more broken for skilled players and generally feel worse for everyone else (especially since ping different would really matter and MR itemization is **awful **enough as it is, which is the real reason you see so many BVs), and it removes the counter play of being able to poke off the shield to begin with since it could always be saved til when you wanted. Think about in pro play they would almost use (or try to use) it block enemy ultimate abilities thus punishing the aggressor even more potentially now than it does currently, being able to null an enemy ult on demand is an insane amount of power. Besides I feel like this change is making it too similar {{item:3139}} or {{item:3157}} territory.
I think your idea is a really solid improvement over mine. I'm going to edit my post to reflect your charging idea, the point you made about simply waiting for 8 stacks is entirely valid
I agree, being able to choose what enemy spell you block would be a big change, but it would be a change already implemented in the game. Is Nocturne's Shroud of Darkness game breaking? How about Sivir's Spellshield? The truth is, single spell spell shields are an extremely high skill capped mechanic that even pro players mess up. Just because you can't pop Banshee's like you used to, you can still fire several abilities at once, making it less likely they'll block the right one. A 2 minute Spell shield is far from game breaking, and in many ways is a much stronger alternative. The current Banshee's is significantly more oppressive in it's current state, as it allows backline champions to sit in a literal bubble of safety at all times. I think Merc Scimitar and Zhonyas serve very different purposes in the game. With Mercurial Scimitar, you can stop CC AFTER it's happened. Banshee's Veil would be incapable of doing this in it's new form, thus giving both items a niche. As for being like Zhonya's, it's simply not. Also, saying this new Banshee's is broken for skilled players and worse for everyone else is a really pessimistic way of saying it would increase the skill cap of the game. Isn't a higher skill cap a good thing? I don't know about you, but the most rewarding feeling in the game to me is a well timed item active. Is it really fair to say something isn't viable because some players have higher ping, when there are already hundreds if not thousands of events in league that require decent ping to react to?
>Is Nocturne's Shroud of Darkness game breaking? How about Sivir's Spellshield? Yes but it's **unique** aspect to their kits that they are balanced around, and putting it on an item that every role can cheapens it somewhat and trivializes the uniqueness of it. Just because you can't pop Banshee's like you used to, you can still fire several abilities at once, making it less likely they'll block the right one. Yes but this system will allow skilled players to make numerous champions worthless or greatly devalued as blocking their ults would be easy where they can't necessarily fire multiple abilities at you or easy to click it while the projectile is in the area. ie {{champion:22}} {{champion:110}} come to mind As for being like Zhonya's, it's simply not. It's very similar both are item usable in reaction to incoming spell/CC (or dmg in Zhonya's case) without the trade off Zhonya's make for such on demand defense. Also, saying this new Banshee's is broken for skilled players and worse for everyone else is a really pessimistic way of saying it would increase the skill cap of the game. Isn't a higher skill cap a good thing? Theoretically sure, but in the current MR itemization there needs to be decent MR item that doesn't force newer players into an fairly unforgiving system and would cause numerous champions to become much more of a problem in lower levels of play. Is it really fair to say something isn't viable because some players have higher ping, when there are already hundreds if not thousands of events in league that require decent ping to react to? There are plenty, but I don't think that tying the (debately) best MR item currently in the game to something so depended on ping is near fair to the player base.
While i agree that BV is problematic and encourages save play, ur proposed change would not help, atleast in higher elos, as it would actually help pokecomps vs engage comps, as u couldn'T poke of the shield befor the engage, they could always wait for some cc to shield to prevent an initiation, while it'S hard for an engagecomp to block an specific skill if while they jump into the fray.
I think the problem is more that its the best MR item in almost every situation. The best general MR item should not be the one with the spellshield, the spellshield should be situational/niche. I dont like giving a on demand shield active on an item. It greatly increases the skillcap in a non fun way and reduces counterplay if people master using it. I think increasing the shield refresh time as they are doing aswell as making the item significantly worse in most situations compared to other MR items is the way to go. I don't think spellshields counter poke, its more like poke counters spellshields I don't think spellshields should counter long range cc, I think tenacity and tanks should I think the problem is knockup creep making tenacity generally bad and tankyness dropping off too hard late game
I agree with you. The real problem is that Banshee is a really strong as an item. There is no meaningful choice when it comes to buying a defensive MR item. It does everything too well.
{{item:3065}} and bulwark use to be actual choices for MR items, then rito decided they hate MR items deleted bulwark left {{item:3190}} in mediocre defensive item in its place outside of tanks, left {{item:3026}} for the revive mostly, and {{item:3065}} lost CDR making it much less of a trade off to {{item:3102}} over. Buff {{item:3065}} back to 15-20% CDR and it be an actual choice again outside champs who abuse the passive.
lol high elo problems # bronze

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